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Angencies that advertise bogus jobs!

 
#1 Angencies that advertise bogus jobs!
21/11/2009 20:20

Sincerity

Can we use this forum to name and shame recruitment agencies that post bogus jobs. Who ranks first among them?

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#2 RE: Agencies that advertise bogus jobs!
21/11/2009 20:23

LOL to Sincerity (#1)

Mindbench?

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#3 RE: Agencies that advertise bogus jobs!
21/11/2009 23:14

Snapdragon to LOL (#2)

Ditto that - they're usually blatant though. Are there any agencies bothering to put out well-disguised CV traps? Would we know if they really are that well disguised though?

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#4 RE: Agencies that advertise bogus jobs!
22/11/2009 19:42

DCF to Snapdragon (#3)

And a third vote for Mindbench, from personal experience of applying for a role to find it was imaginary.

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#5 RE: Agencies that advertise bogus jobs!
23/11/2009 10:16

sm to DCF (#4)

Mindbench again....mind you they did offer to enter my details on their system once. And guess what happened?

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#6 RE: Agencies that advertise bogus jobs!
23/11/2009 10:21

anon to sm (#5)

not sure... nothing?

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#7 RE: Agencies that advertise bogus jobs!
23/11/2009 10:24

sm to anon (#6)

You got it.

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#8 RE: Agencies that advertise bogus jobs!
23/11/2009 12:02

Ruth B to sm (#7)

Hang on a minute now ...... unlikely as I am to run to the defence of the opposition here but I've worked with mindbench in my prior incarnation as an internal recruiter and they were pretty damn good!

We have been over and over the reasons most agencies dont use fake jobs for fishing (in the main that you get far too many of the wrong fish)..... Sometimes, unfortunatly, candidates do apply for roles that they are not suitable for !

Whist I am sure you are all great (which I why i use here) companies use agencies for the hard to fill roles - to filter out unsuitable applicants and headhunt the right ones. If the role says top tier consulting background and you don't have one don't apply!

BTW all my adverts are real and specific for the reasons above

xxx

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#9 RE: Agencies that advertise bogus jobs!
23/11/2009 12:40

DCF to Ruth B (#8)

Ruth,

Your contribution is irrelevant. We are talking about agencies which post adverts for jobs which do not exist, or at best for jobs for which they have no mandate to find people.

It's just tough **** if adverts get a large number of unsuitable applications. Tough **** and **** not relevant to this discussion.

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#10 RE: Agencies that advertise bogus jobs!
23/11/2009 13:32

Ruth B to DCF (#9)

Nice, DCF, nice.

My point is that I don't think they do do that, and that is relevant, as is why many companies don't do that.

Maybe you (or indeed your attitude) weren't right for the job!

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#11 RE: Agencies that advertise bogus jobs!
23/11/2009 14:09

DCF to Ruth B (#10)

Yep, such is my skill at writing that my attitude just seeps through my CV and application letters...

You "don't think they do do that" - based on what? How would you know, from the other side of the fence as a recruiter?

I and the other posters have experienced situations whereby it blatantly turned out the advert placed by Mindbench was for a job that did not exist. It is not a question of whether or not I was suitable for it, because... there was no such job.

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#12 RE: Agencies that advertise bogus jobs!
23/11/2009 15:10

Mr Cool to Ruth B (#8)

Ruth,

My wife worked in recruitment for many years and through her I have at least a dozen close friends in the industry and probably know fifty active recruiters. I can categorically promise you that some agents post ads for non-existent jobs. Here’s why.

1. It doesn’t cost anything – most agencies now pay annual fees for the right to post unlimited jobs to job boards.

2. It makes it look like the agency is busy – that attracts both candidates for the few jobs they do have AND clients.

3. It makes the agency look like they know something about specific niches – constantly got ads for those areas – which is a long term positioning of the firm.

4. As a minimum, it’s basic brand level marketing.

5. Some agencies like having a big CV database – they think it helps win clients, so they still indulge in CV harvesting.

6. Some agents (mainly contract market ones, but some perm) will use telephone interviews of candidates to fish for details of recruitment opportunities in the applicants company. In a sense the job they are advertising might be the one that you are leaving!

7. Some individual agents use the ads to look busy. In essence they are kidding their sales manager that what was really a basic “chat” with a client a few weeks ago has in fact turned into a “requirement” (see - I even know the secret recruitment lingo!). They bluff their manager into thinking they have business while they frantically look around for real requirements.

Sonetimes an agency posts an ad’s for what even they think is a “real” job, only to find that their client does not have the necessary sign-off (or appetite) to go through with the actual hiring. Consultancies are often made up of little fiefdoms and even though one area is making cuts, another might be speculatively advertising, only to have their wings clipped by HR after the ad has gone out. In these cases the recruitment agency has not deliberately lied, but has perhaps failed to qualify the opportunity (or turned a blind eye to it, where trying to keep their sales manager off their back for having no requirements).

I don’t condone any of this; I’m just explaining that it does happen and why. If you think its bad in the permanent recruitment market, I can assure you it’s twice as bad in the term/contract market – particularly the fishing for contacts. The general line is “I just need two references from recent employers in order to put your CV forward for this role, please”….cue contractor providing names and contact details of recent hiring managers!

Clearly you personally do not waste your time with any of this, but that does not mean that others don’t.

If you think that all of this spurious activity sounds like bad economics, you'd be right - but what makes you think that many of the "pile em high, sell it cheap" recruitment agents who are desperate for a sale in these difficult times can be relied upon to make sensible investment decisions. In good times many of them throw mud at a wall in the hope its sticks, when bad times arrive, all they can do is double the amount of mud they throw at an ever smaller wall.

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#13 RE: Agencies that advertise bogus jobs!
23/11/2009 16:25

Independent to Mr Cool (#12)

Ruth,

I am sorry to say this but you don't know what you are talking about.

I am an independent consultant and I started using agencies this year to find contract work - as most of the consultancies that I usually work with as as associate are struggling to find/win opportunities in these difficult times. I can categorically assure you that there are a number of agencies that post fake job adverts. I can name two - Badenoch & Clark and Morgan Law. I suggest that consultants be very wary of these two agencies - time wasters both of them.

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#14 RE: Agencies that advertise bogus jobs!
23/11/2009 17:20

Ruth B to Independent (#13)

Okay, okay, okay......

'agent admits fallibility shocker'

so I'm not aware of what some of you have been through with agencies but there are some (very general) differentiators coming out here.....

contract v perm

large agencies with huge buying power v niche recruiters

statistical management v relationship management

volume of roles v very specific positions

things to bear in mind?

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#15 RE: Agencies that advertise bogus jobs!
23/11/2009 17:28

DCF to Ruth B (#14)

YEs, but not necessarily very helpful when deciding whether to invest time in applying for what looks like an ideal role. People are busy and haven't time to waste; jobs are a bog part of life and it's disappointing when what looked like a great opportunity turns out to be a mirage.

Hence the irritation with a practice that - whatever the reason for doing it - is plain wrong.

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#16 RE: Agencies that advertise bogus jobs!
23/11/2009 17:28

DCF to DCF (#15)

Meant "big" but "bog" sometimes more apt

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#17 RE: Agencies that advertise bogus jobs!
23/11/2009 17:36

Luke Marshall to Mr Cool (#12)

Having worked for large recruitment firms in the past before setting up my own executive search firm I have to say that Mr. Cool has got it spot on.

Sadly this is typical of the sloppy practices undertaken by so many recruiters at present. No wonder recruitment consultants are viewed with such distain. Why would a top tier consultancy firm pay upwards of 30% of a candidates salary to a recruitment firm to post jobs on their behalf when they could advertise directly themselves makes no sense whatsoever ?

It is about time recruiters got off their ***** and provided value to their clients and the candidates they supposedly represent !!!!

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#18 RE: Agencies that advertise bogus jobs!
23/11/2009 17:41

Ruth B to Luke Marshall (#17)

valid point DCF (- can we be friends now?)

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#19 RE: Agencies that advertise bogus jobs!
23/11/2009 20:36

Sincerity to Ruth B (#18)

It is interesting to know that this post has gnerated intense debate. However, let us not lose sight of the real issue. The real issue is to name and shame those agencies that post bogus jobs. So far, we have mentioned only three:

Mindbench

Bandenock & Clark

Morgan Law

We need more names so that we know who to avoid.

"Supply Chain Online" is definitely one of them!

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#20 RE: Agencies that advertise bogus jobs!
24/11/2009 07:48

Anon to Sincerity (#19)

I for one would find it useful to have information supplied in the following format if people are willing to share:

1. Name of recruitment agency

2. Name of particular recruiter(s) involved

3. Year(s) of incident(s)

4. Nature of incident (didn't return calls, bogus ad, got you a job quickly, successfully increased your salary, etc)

5. A brief description of how you would describe the agency's way of working with candidates

5. Overall score out of 10

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#21 RE: Agencies that advertise bogus jobs!
24/11/2009 10:46

DCF to Anon (#20)

1. Mindbench

2. Judith

3. 2008

4. Job advertised was bogus. Had a worthwhile meeting but was then dreadful at returning calls, after lots of stalling - seemed to be out of embarassment at her failure to achieve any traction with the company she had in kind when the bogus ad was drafted - because she clearly had no mandate to find someone for such a position. It was egg on the face time when same company openly advertised a position a short while later, to which I replied, heard back straightaway and had an interview a week later. Hence I have always had my doubts as to what she actually did or what the truth was.

5. CV farming shop. Evasive and untrustworthy employees.

6. 0/10. A waste of time and an illustration of when it's best to do it yourself rather than involve some non-value adding intermediary.

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#22 RE: Agencies that advertise bogus jobs!
24/11/2009 20:52

Richard Stewart to DCF (#21)

Hello all,

As Mindbench is mentioned, I am responding to the inquiries here regarding us and our service. I can categorically say that we never advertise "bogus" roles. Ethically we would never do that as it doesnt fit with our values as a business but it would also not make any commercial sense for us . We have been active and successful in this market place for over 6 years and have an unprecedented existing candidate reach. There is simply no point for us to pay for advertising which doesn't generate additional quality candidates for our specific briefs as detailed in the adverts. It would waste candidates time, our time and cost us money.

Mindbench is one of a very few recruitment companies in the consulting or business services sector to actually grow during the recession and not make any redundancies. This is testament to the resilience of our business model but also the trust that clients and candidates place with us. We are concious that this trust needs to be constantly earned and focus on quality in every aspect of our operation.

We work with the best candidates in the market place over the long term. Of course some candidates will be dissapointed that they don't meet our very stringent criteria but our clients appreciate that we only select the best for them. We will of course always be fair, direct and informative. We accept that we cant help all candidates and will let you know this if this is the case.

If anyone feels that they have not been given access to an opportunity that they think they deserve through our service I would ask them to email me directly, detailing the nature of the application to richard@mindbench.co.uk

many thanks and good luck with your job search,

best, Richard

Richard Stewart

Managing Director

Mindbench

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#23 RE: Agencies that advertise bogus jobs!
25/11/2009 10:17

DCF to Richard Stewart (#22)

Fine words, Richard, but I already work in a role for which there are "very stringent criteria", and as I related, when I applied directly for the bogus role you advertised, I also met that company's "very stringent criteria".

Get over yourself.

I can categorically state that you do post bogus roles, or at least ones for which the company has not instructed you to find someone, but where once you have the CV you hope to "sell" the candidate into the company. Only problem with this is that your junior agents may only have weak connections with some bod in HR and are ineffective in doing so.

Your agent was not "fair, direct and informative". Nor did she "accept that we cant help all candidates and... let [me] know this if this [was] the case".

I shan't bother to contact you as (a) it's water under the bridge, (b) it's not a matter of "not getting access to an opportunity I think I deserve, as via you there wasn't one, and (c) it's better that we discuss such things in public so that others may benefit from our experiences.

Perhaps you should reflect on why your company has come up most on this thread - something clearly isn't right. Are you sure you know what your agents are up to?

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#24 RE: Agencies that advertise bogus jobs!
25/11/2009 11:28

Anon to DCF (#23)

I think the problem might lie in advertisements that are either "catch all" or advertising the recruitment company rather than an actual position.

http://www.top-consultant.com/UK/career/appointmentstwo.aspx?ID=35256

I don't know about legal or ethical implications but this isn't the type of advertisement I'd expect to see from an agency with an "an unprecedented existing candidate reach" Certainly not a "specific brief".

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#25 RE: Agencies that advertise bogus jobs!
25/11/2009 12:55

sm to Anon (#24)

Well I think the Mindbench consultant named will have learnt a lesson now...

However this is not just about one consultant and Mindbench - the practice seems to be rife and to target one individual is hardly fair.

So, who else deserves a mention?

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#26 RE: Agencies that advertise bogus jobs!
25/11/2009 14:13

Mr Cool to Richard Stewart (#22)

Richard,

Good to see you getting involved in the discussion – as you have chosen to do so, I’ll share my experience.

About 20 months ago I applied to an advertisement for a specific role advertised by Mindbench on an online jobsite. On receipt of my CV one of your agents called me and explained that the client was Cap Gemini, and confirmed that I would like my application to progress.

She arranged to call me back as it would take about "an half an hour to put your details into Cap’s system”. Apparently Cap would not accept CV’s from Mindbench, but required all details to be fed into a specially designed application form. Keen to progress, I agreed to invest the time. I wish I had not. It was a tortuous activity as I tried to explain my roles and responsibilities on a dozen projects stretching over 10 years to someone who had no understanding of consulting. Towards the end she asked which “department” I’d like to apply to. I reminded her that I had applied to an ad for a specific job. She explained that the process was that she would forward the application to the department, then she’d hear back if there were any vacancies going!

Needless to say I heard nothing from Cap Gemini, or from your agent, ever again.

I should say thank you, the experience of big company bureaucracy and "know-nothing" agents was enough to force me into going into business on my own - the best decison I've ever made.

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#27 RE: Agencies that advertise bogus jobs!
25/11/2009 17:09

Jean Paul Sartre - what really is "real"? to Richard Stewart (#22)

Hi Richard,

I’d like to apply for some of the jobs that you are CURRENTLY advertising on your own website. I’m particularly keen on the Procurement/Supply Chain specialists Consultants and Managers job (ID - J10000491A). Can you confirm that this like all your other advertisements is a live/real opportunity?

If so can you explain why the start date for the job is March 2009? When you say that all your advertisements are for real jobs, does that include ads on your web site for jobs that were real a year ago? That might erroneously and purely accidentally attract candidates for jobs that are no longer available!! It might accidentaly make it look like Mindbench have more active jobs than they actually have!!

In fact of the 56 advertised permanent positions available through the search function on the mindbench site, only FOUR have future start dates. I'm confused!

Off to ask Simone de Beauvoir for helping in understanding what real means in this context...

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#28 RE: Agencies that advertise bogus jobs!
25/11/2009 17:26

Rene Descartes to Jean Paul Sartre - what really is "real"? (#27)

Ah... but none of the job postings are any more or less real - those are just jobs Mindbench made up earlier.

Perhaps Richard's philosophy is along the Cartesian lines that he thinks these opportunities exist, therefore they do.

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#29 RE: Agencies that advertise bogus jobs!
25/11/2009 23:04

Fed up to Rene Descartes (#28)

Having dealt with Ruth she is not that thick, and has been around for more than 'a tomato season' so I can only assume that she considers her candidates to be thick!

But then I did know her at Consulting Point.

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#30 RE: Agencies that advertise bogus jobs!
25/11/2009 23:17

Sincerity to Fed up (#29)

I believe Mindbench has taken a real beating here and must therefore learn their lessons! Now how good/bad is Michael Page, Consulting Point, Reeds, etc?

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#31 RE: Agencies that advertise bogus jobs!
26/11/2009 08:55

Ruth B to Fed up (#29)

Fed up - appreciate your approximation of my intellegence. In this industry I wouldn't assume anyone is thick, least of all my candidates (or I wouldn't work with them!)

Unsure you have the right Ruth however, as I've never worked at Consulting Point!

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#32 RE: Agencies that advertise bogus jobs!
26/11/2009 08:58

Olivier to Sincerity (#30)

I had 1 contact with Michael Page in London and they were very professional (can't say the same of their customer Capco)

Michael Page in France on the contrary is just sh***. If there are any French consultants reading this forum and interested to know more I can share my awful experience here as a therapy :-).

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#33 RE: Agencies that advertise bogus jobs!
26/11/2009 09:18

Anon to Olivier (#32)

Olivier

I had similar experience with MP in France - keen to hear your story if it's anything like mine..

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#34 RE: Agencies that advertise bogus jobs!
26/11/2009 10:02

DCF to Anon (#33)

@ Fed up:

Maybe that's because we are talking about JUDITH at Minbench rather than a RUTH?

Still, why why let that get in the way of suggesting that it's all down to shortcomings on the candidates part?

You are Richard Stewart and I claim my £5.

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#35 RE: Agencies that advertise bogus jobs!
26/11/2009 11:28

Dara O'Briain to DCF (#34)

At the end of this round, the points go to Jean Paul Sartre.

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#36 RE: Agencies that advertise bogus jobs!
26/11/2009 13:53

Jean Paul Sartre to Dara O'Briain (#35)

Dara,

Merci for the points. As I always say, "and what do points make?...penguins."

Or anything else that you want them to make - that's the beauty of existentialist choice.

Still looking for a job as a procurement consultant though...

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#37 RE: Agencies that advertise bogus jobs!
26/11/2009 14:38

Shakespeare to Jean Paul Sartre (#36)

To be, or not to be. THAT is the question.

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#38 RE: Agencies that advertise bogus jobs!
26/11/2009 19:52

Mars A Day to Shakespeare (#37)

(The Job) is Dead. Nietzsche had it right - complain about being underestimated and misunderstood then when you've talked yourself into a philosophical cul de sac hide out in a mental institution (or recruitment firm if the nut houses are full).

The recession has boiled out much of the rubbish, but to help when talking to a recruiter qualify their relationship with the client much as you would new client yourself.

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#39 RE: Agencies that advertise bogus jobs!
27/11/2009 17:14

Kirk Douglas to Mars A Day (#38)

No! I am Richard Stewart!

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#40 RE: Agencies that advertise bogus jobs!
30/11/2009 14:52

Olivier to Anon (#33)

So here is my experience with Michael Page France.

It all began by an exciting role they had advertised like "an international strategy and management consultancy is looking for...". Since I matched 90%+ of the profile I applied. I received a phone call from the recruiter who wanted to meet with me. So far so good.

And then I met a scornful guy who told me that I didn't have the profile without elaborating. When I enquired why, he was ill at ease and just re-stated that I was not suitable. But - lucky me - he had other roles... with totally unknown consultancies that he presented as boutiques. Disappointed I still accepted to met with 2 of them.

The first one was located in a crappy Paris suburb where I met a former IBM teky who explained to me he had created a company to implement ERP to realise he could not compete against Accenture or Capgemini with his team of 5 (what a surprise indeed). So he had decided to launch a new business proposition in oganisational change. Of course he had no contacts, no consultants, no references but he was keen to recruit someone like to me to develop the business from scratch! Should I precise I declined this exciting opportunity?

At the second "boutique" I met the "admin director" (??) who had no idea what kind of project his company was doing and whose selling point was that each month consultants met - in his crap office - to eat sausages (no kidding). This time I did not even bother to say no.

A very good friend had exactly the same experience, simply just other "boutiques".

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#41 RE: Agencies that advertise bogus jobs!
01/12/2009 09:45

Mr Cool to Olivier (#40)

Could you clarify if the second interview was also in Paris? I have been looking for a job eating sausages in Paris. Would you be willing to provide contact details for the company?

Great post by the way!! Still laughing...

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#42 RE: Agencies that advertise bogus jobs!
01/12/2009 14:10

Olivier to Mr Cool (#41)

Yes it was also in Paris in a crap building with dust all over the stairs and on the door there was a post-it on which was written "the bell is out of order, Knock hard". I really thought of running away but decided it could be fun.

Well actually it was "saucisson" and not sausage but I don't know how to translate it.

And yes I'm willing to shame them. It's AUDISOFT and the guy was called Thierry Chalom. I think he left the company probably for the better of it.

Feel free to apply :-)

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