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PA and Employment Tribunals

 
#1 PA and Employment Tribunals
28/09/2009 23:06

MAH

Is anyone here planning to take PA to an Employment Tribunal as a result of the recent "process"? Or have you already done so?

I think pooling ideas/strategies and information might be rather useful.

If you prefer - all responses can be treated in strictest confidence. Please use this email if you prefer this option:

novemq at gmail dot com

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#2 RE: PA and Employment Tribunals
29/09/2009 10:44

Bryan Hickson to MAH (#1)

MAH and PAers - please note that we can't allow this pooling of ideas/strategies on this forum so do please other options. Many thanks, Bryan@top-consultant.com

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#3 RE: PA and Employment Tribunals
29/09/2009 22:48

alan to Bryan Hickson (#2)

why not?

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#4 RE: PA and Employment Tribunals
30/09/2009 12:32

Tribunal winner (not at PA) to alan (#3)

Having gone through a tribunal (not against PA) and won, I can confirm that when filling the complaint form, you will be asked to "link" your complaint to any known complaints from ex-colleagues. There are numerous legal reasons why this is a very good idea - mainly you can benefit from evidence from all cases. If cases are heard seperately, you cannot refer to evidence from other cases.

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#5 RE: PA and Employment Tribunals
30/09/2009 13:35

MAH to Tribunal winner (not at PA) (#4)

@Tribunal Winner

Many thanks for the advice, which is most useful.

I will change my original request to:

Anyone who has a complaint against PA whether or not it has resulted in, or might result in, an Employment Tribunal, please post here, or contact me at

novemq at googlemail dot com

(not gmail, as previously mis-advised!)

Many thanks!

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#6 RE: PA and Employment Tribunals
30/09/2009 20:13

Ex-PA to MAH (#5)

Good luck with that MAH.

PA have an appalling attitude to their staff – it has always been like this. From what I hear, they are inundated with unfair dismissals claims. I only hope they lose every last one of them.

The irony is that PA Consulting publish so much on their external website advising organisations on how to manage HR issues. What a cheek.

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#7 RE: PA and Employment Tribunals
03/10/2009 12:46

AnonXPA to Ex-PA (#6)

Good luck and best wishes to everyone taking PA to an ET. It's payback time for what they put people through. Best career move ever was me leaving them. and I know others too.

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#8 RE: PA and Employment Tribunals
05/10/2009 14:24

ano anon to MAH (#5)

I will try and send you some pointers about what to do and how it works this week. This will be up to date information. This should assist you

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#9 RE: PA and Employment Tribunals
05/10/2009 22:34

Young Turk to ano anon (#8)

One of the most insensitive cases that I've come across is a lady who has just gone on maternity leave. PA are waiting until she comes off that before they can make her redundant. If that's not a case that is winnable at Tribunal, I don't know what is.

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#10 RE: PA and Employment Tribunals
06/10/2009 09:34

mandy to Young Turk (#9)

Sadly for Young Turk, there's nothing wrong with PA waiting for someone to return from Mat Leave to make them redundant. Just because you don't like something doesn't necessarily make it a losing case at an ET.

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#11 RE: PA and Employment Tribunals
06/10/2009 09:45

Parent to Young Turk (#9)

So you would prefer people get made redundant whilst they're away on maternity leave?!?

Besides which, claiming pregnancy or pregnancy-related illness is the oldest known trick to get yourself white-listed out of consideration for the redundancy programme, so you have to take this situation with a pinch of salt.

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#12 RE: PA and Employment Tribunals
06/10/2009 10:27

MAH to Parent (#11)

Claiming to be pregnant?

I believe that pregnancy is quite easy to prove these days. And the test does not involve any pinches of salt.

Other techniques used by PA *are* probably much closer to the salt pinching exercise (anonymous peer reviews, Line Manager "adjustments", bell curve manipulations etc)

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#13 RE: PA and Employment Tribunals
06/10/2009 10:27

Wake UP young turk to Young Turk (#9)

The whole point of employment protection relating to pregnancy is that the pregnancy should become a non-issue. Pregnant women should enjoy the exact same level of employment protection as a non-pregnant person.

PA being as it is, that level of protection is low, pregnant or not.

Frankly if I was a non-pregnant recently redundant person I'd be pointing at this case (assuming it is not an urban myth) as an example of discrimination against non-pregnant ME. Why should a pregnant person be kept on longer than a non-pregant person?

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#14 RE: PA and Employment Tribunals
06/10/2009 13:44

Parent to MAH (#12)

When was the last time anyone was asked to prove they were pregnant? You don't need a doctor's note for maternity leave at PA or anywhere else I've worked. And you certainly would never get asked for proof of pregnancy-related illness (for those who haven't experienced the job of birth, this is a euphamism for pre/post natal mental or physical conditions - up to and including miscarriages).

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#15 RE: PA and Employment Tribunals
06/10/2009 17:38

baby booming to Parent (#14)

usually the proof is in the pudding you look as if you have stuffed up your jumper. I've generally found it to be more objectionable for people to assume you are pregnant than not and (bar the odd packed commuter train) have not reacted favourably to comments made on that assumption.

Now that I am no one ever bloody notices - and since i'm unlucky to want to return to work at the end of my mat leave I'd rather hold on and go for redundancy thank you.

Except I don't work for PA so i doubt it will happen.

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#16 RE: PA and Employment Tribunals
07/10/2009 10:59

James to baby booming (#15)

I second the post above. I was recently extremely angry when a non-PC colleague asked when the baby was due.

Its not my fault I've been on a project on a client site with a free canteen for three months.

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#17 RE: PA and Employment Tribunals
07/10/2009 11:15

Cynic to James (#16)

JAmes, do you by any chance look like this?

http://tinyurl.com/klummers

Hehe.

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#18 RE: PA and Employment Tribunals
07/10/2009 15:04

James to Cynic (#17)

Alas not yet. I aspire to the physical robustness of Mr Prescott, but cannot believe that even a year of free canteen food (that includes afternoon tea BTW) would get me as fat and bloated as a career politician.

(Interesting coincidence: I have the same dress as HK is wearing in that photo!)

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#19 RE: PA and Employment Tribunals
08/10/2009 00:12

ex-PA to James (#18)

Have any of these Tribunals started? I hope PA get royally scr**ed.

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#20 RE: PA and Employment Tribunals
08/10/2009 10:03

Fed up hearing about PA to ex-PA (#19)

Is anyone else sick and tired of the current and former employees of PA whinging about anything they can vaguely connect with PA?

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#21 RE: PA and Employment Tribunals
08/10/2009 12:02

Ex-PA to Fed up hearing about PA (#20)

We're not whinging! PA ruins lives and its not whinging to point that out.

Until a few years ago I was happy, fit and productive. Then I took a job with PA. Soon after I found that I was getting older. Every single day it seemed like I was aging.

Then I noticed that my wife seemed to be getting older too! And she didn't even work for the firm.

Then last year my dog died. At that point I really though about leaving the firm. I mean what did my dog ever do to PA?!

However I stuck it out because I was quite close to a promotion by then. I wish I hadn't because only a few months later I found out that my house was worth 20% less than when I joined PA. That was just too much! I made it clear to one of the partners that it had to stop. To be honest he seemed to have trouble understanding my conerns. Talk about detached form the real world!

Finally last month I was told that I might be at risk of redundancy, despite the fact that I am one of the most capable powerpoint people in my team. Whats that all about?

Now I find myself looking for a new job. There is not one single consultancy advertising for consultants with advanced powerpoint skills, experience of local government bodyshopping and multi-functional cross method process improvement efficency maximisation!

Which just goes to show how bad the PA partners are! PA have cornered the market in these skills to an extent that we've clearly frightened off all the competition. PA now have a monoply on government powerpoint work and they still can't make it work! Losers!

Man I'm glad I'm out of there.

And I'm not whinging.

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#22 RE: PA and Employment Tribunals
08/10/2009 13:39

On and on it goes.... to Ex-PA (#21)

At the above post.. Brilliant, not much more needs saying!

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#23 RE: PA and Employment Tribunals
08/10/2009 16:35

Tiddler to On and on it goes.... (#22)

"There is not one single consultancy advertising for consultants with advanced powerpoint skills, experience of local government bodyshopping and multi-functional cross method process improvement efficency maximisation! "

I almost choked on my latte - probably the funniest post I've ever seen on this board.

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#24 RE: PA and Employment Tribunals
08/10/2009 18:51

Ed to Tiddler (#23)

What's good about Ex-PA's post is that it nails both PA and it's whingers. It's time we heard no more from both - let both sides thrash it out on their intranet if either have got the balls.

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#25 RE: PA and Employment Tribunals
08/10/2009 19:18

MAH to Ed (#24)

Oh how amusing. It is a pity that the "jokers" haven't had their careers and lives impacted by the utterly reprehensible behaviour displayed by certain sections of the management of PA.

Not all partners are bad - far from it, there are some excellent and reputable people still around - but the entire atmosphere of the place, and firm's approach to managing people has changed utterly in the time I have been there.

It used to have a reputation for fairness and ethical behaviour. Anyone who has been on the wrong end of the current attitude and approach will not be seeing the humour in the puerile posts above.

So - stop the pathetic statements about whingers etc. People's livelihoods and careers have been impacted. If you have nothing sensible to post here then find another thread for your "humour".

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#26 RE: PA and Employment Tribunals
08/10/2009 20:00

Ask me to MAH (#25)

Why oh why, do the PA cheerleaders want all disucssion of the company quelled?

Yes - we have a discussion board within PA, but its full of sycophants asking questions about trite issues like our recycling policy and such. No criticism of the company is invited or accepted, which is why disillusioned staff are forced to post here.

At least we can be very sure that senior management read these postings, if only from the warnings issued to staff over the past six months.

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#27 RE: PA and Employment Tribunals
08/10/2009 20:29

bored to Ask me (#26)

"Why oh why, do the PA cheerleaders want all disucssion of the company quelled?"

It's not wanting it quelled, but clearly it's the same people over and over again saying the same things. Where are the 60+ post threads on job losses at other firms saying how unfair life is that professional services firms can't pay them forever and ever despite the downturn?

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#28 RE: PA and Employment Tribunals
08/10/2009 21:27

Cheerleader no more to bored (#27)

Apologies to wade in here, but the key difference is that other companies handled the redundancies in a respectful transparent open manner and offered staff a reasonable level of redundancy payments, while PA Consulting out a swathe of staff on a PIP and tried to get away with paying the statutory minimum.

PA Consulting deserves all the heat it gets on this forum for the awful way that it mistreats its staff.

I hope it loses every last Tribunal claim

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#29 RE: PA and Employment Tribunals
08/10/2009 22:57

ANOXPA to Cheerleader no more (#28)

I did enjoy Ex-PA's clever mickey take that parodied both PA and its cheesed off staff. Nice work. However, given the dreadful way PA runs its business and people management i don't think that you can ever say it gets too much stick on here.

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#30 RE: PA and Employment Tribunals
09/10/2009 17:34

Agreeing with bored to bored (#27)

Bored's post is so right. It is the same dreary stuff time after time. Apart from the half a dozen people who claim to have left, or are trapped in or were never in PA none of us care. We got it the first time you whinged and that was reinforced the second time, the third, fourth ad nauseum.

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#31 RE: PA and Employment Tribunals
09/10/2009 20:06

MAH to Agreeing with bored (#30)

How incomplete must your dull lives be if you have to keep on coming back to this "boring thread" to tell us how bored you are?

Do you have nothing better to do?

No-one forces you to read this thread do they?

So back on topic - I would like to hear from people who have been on the wrong end of the abuse known as PIP...

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#32 RE: PA and Employment Tribunals
09/10/2009 20:35

Vicky to MAH (#31)

Yeah well, I wanted to tell you about my PIP but its just like sooooooooo boring

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#33 PIP
10/10/2009 14:16

New to consulting to Vicky (#32)

What's a PIP?

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#34 RE: PIP
12/10/2009 17:40

Ex-Pa to New to consulting (#33)

It’s the PA method to coerce surplus supply side resource (hereinafter “Staff”) out of their business. It means that partner bonuses don’t get diluted by paying out redundancies.

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#35 RE: PA and Employment Tribunals
13/10/2009 12:53

HonestJohn to MAH (#31)

The PIP process and the mid and end year appriasal processes are far from transparent. The latter 2 processes can you the results PA wants and are not necessarily in the favour of the employee. Did you know that line managers can adjust your score either upwards or downwards so a 2 score can become a 3 and likewise a 2 score can become a 1!! Apart from the line manager adjustment factor there is the readacross teams adjustment factor that can be equally unfair.

Perhaps every body who is on a PIP should use the Data Protection Subject Access Request process to obtain all their personal data including the Read Across Spreadsheets and see how the process really works....... It should reveal how PA manipulate the system to get rid of staff without having to pay any compensation with brings into question how ethical and morale correct the company is in managing performance for which there is not real and agreed legal definition.

Did you know that a certain percentage of staff have to be placed on a PIP once they have achieved a 1 score just to satisfy the 'system'. The number apparently varies according to the profitably of the practice so I have been told so where is the transparency.

Everything in the PIP process is black or white. There are no shades of grey so be warned. Even achieving a utilisation target of say 80% against a target of 85% is deemed a failure ie no shades of grey.

All the apparent whingers on the forum are right as it only the insiders who know the full story and want everybody to know what really happens.........

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#36 RE: PA and Employment Tribunals
14/10/2009 09:33

Ex-Pat to Ex-PA (#21)

How right this person is. PA do not recognise true talent only their own perceived version of talent and have no regard for how they ruin peoples' lives.

Much has been mentioned about the PIP process and its lack of openness. Isn't it about time PA become more open like other companies and regular post on EIS all the PIP statistics by practice as a version of the name and shame list that is published for Partner success in managing invoice collection.

Surely an open minded company would not have a problem publishing such details or are they just trying to hide things. Other people would be more supportive if they knew the names of their colleagues being subjected to the process.

Is this too much to ask.........

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#37 RE: PA and Employment Tribunals
14/10/2009 11:47

Bored with it all to MAH (#31)

YAWN @ MAH

Be you read closer for all the showbiz gossip as well.

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#38 RE: PA and Employment Tribunals
14/10/2009 15:53

anon to Bored with it all (#37)

Yawn??

How original of the sole PA cheerleader to dismiss employees concerns as boring.

The only boring thing here is your lack of imagination.

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#39 RE: PA and Employment Tribunals
14/10/2009 16:47

PA Lifer to anon (#38)

Having spent many, many years at PA, I can agree with all that has been said. Did you know that even if everyone in the Practice reaches their utilisation target, some of them HAVE to get a 1 according to the laid-down score quota. A '1' leads to a PIP (Personal Improvement Plan) - and the first step to being managed out of the company.

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#40 RE: PA and Employment Tribunals
15/10/2009 16:48

HonestJohn2 to HonestJohn (#35)

The grass isnt' always greener ........

I suspect you'll find that the PIP equivalents in other consulting companies aren't so different - very subjective / political; not based on objective evidence, and a final star chamber to "moderate" the marks.

One recent example; everyone based out of one office got dropped one mark by the senior management "because everyone was too highly marked" (even though some of them had done the original assessments).

No explanation provided for the reasons behind this or in which specific area(s) individuals were seen to be falling short to justify the blanket grade reduction......and yes, it did affect bonuses, morale & retention.

Best to specifically ask your potential colleagues at interview how their assessment processes work in practice rather than getting the sometimes illusory picture from HR or senior managers.

"Remember TQM (& IPP etc) only allows you to make cr*p consistently"

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#41 RE: PA and Employment Tribunals
15/10/2009 16:50

HonestJohn2 to HonestJohn2 (#40)

PS: if anyone does think their consulting firm's appraisal process is fair, objective, honest and "not just turning the process handle" I'd genuiniely like to hear about it!

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#42 RE: PA and Employment Tribunals
15/10/2009 17:47

Dunc to HonestJohn2 (#41)

I used to work for a well known top-tier consultancy that lost around 30% of its headcount in 6 months without ever having a single redundancy. Basically people we just told "you're crap, off you go" and that was the end of it. The reason they gave me was that "we don't think you've got what it takes at the next level". So basically I was fired because they <b>thought</b> I couldn't do a more senior role than the one I was <b>actually employed for</b>.

This is one of many reasons why it sucks to be a consultant.

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#43 RE: PA and Employment Tribunals
15/10/2009 22:39

BOP man to Dunc (#42)

I'm hearing great things about these Tribunals.

Looks like the partners are having their asses well and truly kicked

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#44 RE: PA and Employment Tribunals
17/10/2009 13:00

Erik the Viking to BOP man (#43)

What's going on at the tribunals? I haven't heard a thing.

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